CPRR Discussion Group

National Train Day

2008-05-10T00:01:00.000-07:00

A very happy National Train Day! - May 10th

Rocklin’s Roundhouse, 1867 to 1908

2008-05-08T19:49:00.000-07:00

"Did You Know? Rocklin’s Roundhouse: 1867 to 1908" by Gary Day, © The Placer Herald, 5/8/08. (News Article)

"Rocklin's roundhouse included 25 engine stalls, a turntable and an 8,000-square-foot woodshed. It was demolished in 1912 after the operation relocated to Roseville. ... Judah’s plan in 1863 was to build a roundhouse at Junction, now Roseville, to service the extra engines that would be needed to help trains surmount the Sierra. But Judah died that year and new CP managers decided to build the roundhouse at Rocklin instead, closer to the point where the rail bed steepens as it heads toward Auburn. ... In 1869 the woodshed burned and was quickly rebuilt. In 1873 the roundhouse burned again as its roof was being tarred. The fire destroyed ten engines and damaged several coaches but the facility continued to function without interruption. ... By April 1908 the railroad had moved all roundhouse operations to Roseville and the Rocklin facility closed permanently. ... Rocklin’s roundhouse employed 300 people. The monthly payroll was $25-30,000. ... Rocklin’s population declined by 80 percent as roundhouse workers abandoned their homes or moved them to Roseville on flatcars." [More]

[Courtesy Google Alerts.]

Need old redwood

2008-05-08T08:47:00.000-07:00

From: "Judy Ashby" judybug2@verizon.net

In Carbondale, Illinois, we are working to restore the one geodesic dome in which R. Buckminster Fuller and his wife actually lived. One componenet of this restoration project is repair of the redwood fence; Bucky's unique design to maintain privacy while allowing air flow. In order to retain national historical monumnent status, we must use aged redwood like the original as much as possible.

Some early railroad water towers were made of redwood. In fact, we were able to obtain some wood from just such a tower, but we need more. Does anyone know of an existing redwood water tower, upright or fallen, that we could access for wood to continue restoration of Bucky's fence?

Thank you for any help.

Judy
Bucky Board Member

Judy Ashby, MS, LCPC
Executive Director
LifeSavers Training Corp.
LifeSavers = a peer-support, suicide and crisis-prevention program for high schools.
618-549-5578
www.lifesaverstraining.org

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Jimi Hendrix

UP Museum celebrates fifth anniversary

2008-05-07T17:56:00.000-07:00

"UP Museum celebrates fifth anniversary" by Chad Nation, © The Daily Nonpareil, Council Bluffs, Iowa, 05/07/2008. (News Article)

"... On Saturday, officials will once again drive ceremonial spikes – to commemorate the five-year anniversary of the Union Pacific Railroad Museum. The free museum, located at 200 S. Pearl, will celebrate its anniversary starting at 9:30 a.m. ... since the museum's opening, more than 100,000 people ... have passed through the doors ... Saturday's celebration is to honor all of the people who decided to preserve the Council Bluffs Carnegie Library ... " [More]

[Courtesy Google Alerts.]

C.P. Huntington Anecdote

2008-05-07T17:28:00.000-07:00

Bill Bonner writes in The Daily Reckoning on May 7, 2008, the following anecdote about C.P. Huntington:

"One day in 1880, a dealer proposed to Collis P. Huntington, one of the founders of the Central Pacific Railroad … and the state of California, a certain number of old paintings, unsigned, at $2000 each. Huntington chose one, The guitar player, and paid $750 for it. Later, experts attributed the painting to Vermeer.
'I saw the money in it,' said Huntington."

[Courtesy Google Alerts.]

Two Millionth Visitor to the CPRR Museum

2008-05-06T17:24:00.000-07:00

Just moments ago, the Central Pacific Railroad Photographic History Museum website received its two millionth visitor!

We expected that the CPRR.org website in memory of great-great-grandfather Lewis Metzler Clement illustrated by period photographs would be a fairly obscure topic, but have been amazed and delighted that our on-line museum has become such a popular source of information about the first transcontinental railroad.

It has been most gratifying to have so many people contribute to this success. Thanks for all your help and generous contributions over the past nine years!

CPRR.org
May 6, 2008

Vallejo Rail service reaches end of line

2008-05-05T09:15:00.000-07:00

"Rail service reaches end of line: For nearly 140 years, trains helped Vallejo grow, prosper" by Sarah Rohrs, © Vellejo-Benecia-American Canyon, CA Times Herald, 05/04/2008. (News Article)

"When the last train cars recently rolled out of Mare Island, something more happened – Vallejo's once-vital railroad tracks became completely unused. Due to a lack of customers on one rail line, and developer Lennar Mare Island canceling service on the other, California Northern Railroad is no longer running trains into Vallejo, a company spokesman said. After nearly 140 years of freight and passenger rail service in Vallejo, an era has ended. ... " [More]

[Courtesy Google Alerts.]

Nevada Railroad museum gets head of steam as summer approaches

2008-05-05T09:08:00.000-07:00

"Railroad museum gets head of steam as summer approaches" by Andrew Pridgen, © Nevada Appeal, May 5, 2008. (News Article)

" ... Whether it was Boxcar No. 1005, one of the oldest U.S. freight cars in existence, or a ride around the museum's tracks on its Tucson Cornelia & Gila Bend R.R. Motorcar No. 401, museum officials and volunteers literally cried 'all aboard' this weekend as its busy spring/summer season kicks off. ... " [More]

[Courtesy Google Alerts.]

CPRR Discussion Group

2008-05-01T00:01:00.000-07:00

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Transcontinental Railroad
Central Pacific Railroad, Union Pacific Railroad
Railroads, Trains, Locomotives
History of the American West, Chinese railroad workers
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Copyright © 2008, CPRR.org

Conductor's watch with 24 hours face

2008-04-29T10:39:00.000-07:00

From: "St. Germain Pat" PSt.Germain@cr.k12.ia.us

I have seen a picture of a 19th century railroad conductor's watch. What were the 24 letters for on the face? How was the decision made to drop the letters J and V? I'm sure the 24 letters are for the 24 military hours, but why?

Southern Pacific and Denver & Rio Grande

2008-04-27T20:32:00.000-07:00

From: ldfarrar81@comcast.net

Recently I ran across two authors who make the claim that the "little" Denver & Rio Grande Railroad purchased the "big" Southern Pacific (Railroad or Transportation Co – take your pick). This is one of the most complex corporate maneuvers I have ever run into and I have been only 1/2 right, if that, up until recently. And I am thoroughly familiar with the multitudinous corporate changes in the history of Southern Pacific and its predecessors. The corporate history of the Southern Pacific and its family, going back to 1852 and even prior to that, fills a large volume. There are hundreds of predecessors. And some of the predecessors such as Pacific Electric Railway have extensive corporate histories of their own. While I don't intend to confuse historians I feel it is only correct to straighten out this SPT-DRGW confusion.

I contacted Tom O'Donnell, retired corporate Secretary of SPT Co., who kindly sent me the following explanation of what took place. May I recommend that anyone wishing to understand fully the course followed by the various companies, or corporations, will read and re-read Mr. O'Donnell's explanation several times as I have. I can certainly understand what has confused readers and historians. Hopefully, this will clear up things once and for all. Mr. O'Donnell writes:

Rio Grande Holding, Inc. (formerly Rio Grande Industries – incorporated in Delaware October 1, 1968) became a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Anschutz Corporation in November 1984. It was wholly-owned directly by the Anschutz Corporation from November, 1984 until August 8, 1988, when the Anschutz Corporation transferred all shares of common stock to Western Rail Transportation Company, a new wholly-owned subsidiary which than became the new Rio Grande Industries, Inc. on August 9, 1988.

Pursuant to a Share Purchase Agreement dated December 24, 1987, Southern Pacific Company sold all of the outstanding stock of Southern Pacific Transportation Company to SPTC Holding, Inc., a subsidiary of Rio Grande Industries, Inc. on October 13, 1988.

The Denver and Rio Grande Western Railroad Company remained a subsidiary of Rio Grande Holding, Inc. until November 21, 1994, when the stock of The Denver and Rio Grande Western Railroad Company was transferred from Rio Grande Holding, Inc. to Southern Pacific Rail Corporation (SPRC), then from SPRC to Southern Pacific Transportation Company. (This is the legal move which made the DRGW a subsidiary of SPT Co.).

On September 11, 1996, Southern Pacific Rail Corporation, which owned SPT Co. and its subsidiary DRGW, was itself merged into UP Holding Company, Inc. which changed its name the same day to Southern Pacific Rail Corporation. This is how UP effected ownership of Southern Pacific Rail Corporation. —Lynn D. Farrar

Looking for Henry Villa references

2008-04-27T08:56:00.000-07:00

From: Lynn Schroeder

My family is interested in finding out more about a gentleman named Henry Vella who accompanied the Big Four on the first train ride from Sacramento to Reno in the 1860s. Have you ever heard of him?

Thought you might have run across that name. Much of what we have in a letter from him is written in the book by Albert Richardson and we are curious as to who penned it first. ...

—Lynn Schroeder

Texas Hill Country railroads

2008-04-23T12:24:00.000-07:00

From: "Andrew Butler" andrew@hillcountryrambling.com

hillcountryrambling.com is starting to add all things associates with railroads in the Texas Hill Country. Weekly new items will be added.

—Andrew

Railroad Handcar

2008-04-23T12:19:00.000-07:00

From: "Stramel, James" james.stramel@unisys.com

What do they call this workers cart with the pump handle? Is there anywhere to find one of these? Are there any ... diagrams on building one?

—James Stramel

IMPROVEMENT IN PASSENGER AND STATION-REGISTER, U.S. Patent #93,531, August 10, 1869

2008-04-20T08:40:00.000-07:00

From: "Laura Bishop" lmbishop@surewest.net

Here is a little something I found at the US Patents internet site [IMPROVEMENT IN PASSENGER AND STATION-REGISTER, U.S. Patent #93,531, August 10, 1869], that you may like to have. ...

It was interesting to see the names of the towns (1869) on the CPRR line.

"The object of my invention is to provide an improved mechanism to be attached to railroad-cars, so constructed that the various stations along the line will be indicated, so that each passenger can be informed, without the necessity of calling out the names."

Rare items offered by Michael Ginsberg Books

2008-04-14T10:14:00.000-07:00

From: "Michael Ginsberg" ginsbook@bellatlantic.net

Here are some recent acquisitions that may be of interest: ...

Keeler, William J. NATIONAL MAP OF THE TERRITORY OF THE UNITED STATES FROM THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER TO THE PACIFIC OCEAN. Wash., D. C. , Gedey, 1867. 120.9 x 146.4 cm, hand colored and mounted on linen as issued. Folded into original brown cloth cover with title in gilt on front cover, minor repairs at folds and minor repairs to the cloth covers, in cloth slipcase. Presentation copy to Hon W. C. Fields, house of representatives from N. G. Taylor, Commissioners of Indian Affairs. First edition. Phillips p.916. Munk 121. Graff 2281. Martin and Martin: Maps of Texas Plate 47 p. 157 for interesting comments about the map. Wheat, Mapping the Transmississippi West V p.211: coming from such a source and based upon such data it is unnecessary to vouch for its accuracy and reliability. It is a complete Railroad Map, the only one published which shows the whole of the great Pacific Railroad routes and their projections and branches, together with all other railroads in the State and Territories bordering the Mississippi on both sides..." Keeler's map also locate the Indian Reservations of the West colored in orange, the gold mines are identified. The map also depicts the wagon roads, overland routes as well as the post and forts. Streeter Sale 3077. with: NOTES TO ACCOMPANY KEELER'S MAP OF THE U.S. TERRITORY FROM THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER TO THE PACIFIC OCEAN. Wash., GPO, 1868 30pp. Sewn. The "Notes" provide a variety of information: cities where land offices are located, data regarding Pacific Railroad land grants, general descriptions of the states and territories of the West, transportation from the Missouri River to the Rockies, and "Distances from St. Louis to Fort Benton Via Missouri River." Howes K122. The map and notes are rarely offered together. (31343) $5500.00 ...

[PACIFIC TELEGRAPH]. DeGrand, P.P.F et al. PETITION OF P.P.F. DEGRAND AND OTHERS, PRAYING A CHARTER FOR THE PURPOSE OF CONSTRUCTING A RAILROAD AND ESTABLISHING A LINE OF TELEGRAPH FROM ST. LOUIS TO SAN FRANCISCO. Wash., SMD28, 1850 35ppp. dbd. First edition. This plan "is the only one as yet proposed which will secure practically, mathematically and irrevocably, by a single act of Congress, the construction of this great work in the shortest time allowed..." (16384) $75.00 ...

Wilkes, George. PROPOSAL FOR A NATIONAL RAIL-ROAD TO THE PACIFIC OCEAN. FOR THE PURPOSE OF OBTAINING A SHORT ROUTE TO OREGON AND THE INDIES. N.Y., Adee, Printer, 1847. 24pp. Folding map (untitled folding map of the works (position of American between the oceans) 22.3 x 26cm., boundary lines colored in yellow and green, printed on blue paper. Original printed grey wrappers, fine copy laid in half morocco slipcase. Fourth and best edition with the map. Presentation copy from the author at bottom of wrapper title. The map depicts the route for world trade in red. Howes W419: "One of the earliest transcontinental agitations; framed while California was still a Mexican province, and Oregon terminus was planned. Wagner-Camp-Becker 119:2 note. Bancroft in his "History of Oregon" states: "This scheme was for a free national road to be supported by tolls sufficient to pay its expenses, and not a corporate monopoly. Wilkes was in advance of this times; but the principle he advocated is undoubtedly the correct one for developing the great interior of the continent." (31370) $2000.00 ...

[PACIFIC RAILROAD]. Carver, Dr. Hartwell. PROPOSAL FOR A CHARTER TO BUILD A RAILROAD FROM LAKE MICHIGAN TO THE PACIFIC OCEAN. Washington, Gideon, 1847. 38pp. Dbd. Evenly tanned. Very good. Carver, who claims to be the first to propose a railroad to the Pacific Ocean, here brings together his various writings on the subject. He includes a three-page "Memorial for a Private Charter" addressed to the U.S. Congress and asking that Carver and his associates be granted a private charter to build the railroad; remarks on the practicability of the enterprise, including criticisms of the plans of Asa Whitney and George Wilkes (whom Carver claims are asking for too much land and too much time to build the railroad); and various newspaper articles that Carver has written on the subject. "One of the earliest transcontinental projects, with critical comments on the plans of Whitney and Wilkes" – Howes. HOWES C214, "aa." GRAFF 621. COWAN, p.108. RAILWAY ECONOMICS, p.281. (22084) $2250.00 ...

Michael Ginsberg Books, Inc.
P O Box 402
Sharon, MA 02067
tel: 781 784 8181
fax 781 784 1824

Central Pacific Freight Truck Survey

2008-04-08T20:07:00.000-07:00

From: kylewyatt@aol.com

Thought you all might be interested in the attached 19th century Central Pacific Railroad Freight Truck Survey.

—Kyle Wyatt

Wages and Rail Fares in the 1860's

2008-04-08T09:39:00.000-07:00

... I have just been asked some questions about pay rates for railroad workers on the UP and Central Pacific during the construction of the line leading up to the driving of the golden spike. The questions come from one of the teachers working with the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis. They are:

Men's salaries while working on the RR: Men were paid between $1-$5 dollars per day. Immigrants were paid the lowest amount. Is this just for laying track? What were blacksmiths, cooks, carpenters, surveyors and telegraphers paid? What was a masons or a teamster paid during this time? ...

—Ron Goldfeder, St. Louis

[from the R&LHS Newsgroup.]

CP Huntington Loses Control

2008-04-05T17:14:00.000-07:00

From: kylewyatt@aol.com

I was reading in the biography of Henry Edwards Huntington by James Thorpe [University of California Press, Berkeley, 1994] – in particular the section where Henry is in California as Collis' representative in the 1890s. One thing I found particularly interesting was the leadup to Collis' death, which set the scene for Henry losing out in becoming President of the Southern Pacific. In 1898-99 Collis was maneuvering the buyout of the interests of the Crockers, Stanfords, and finally the Hopkins/Searls interests. Huntington acquired some, but his bankers, Speyer & Company, also acquired a lot. Out of this in late 1899 the Southern Pacific Company board was reorganized with all SP officials except CP and Henry removed and replaced with Speyer representatives. Reading between the lines, I think CP blew it right there. In his enthusiasm to get rid of the Crocker, Stanford and Hopkins/Searls interests, he allowed his bankers to gain a major interest. Even before his death they were already dictating some actions. And while CP may have had the strength of position to be able to push back, Henry certainly didn't, which explains maybe why he lost out.

Unfortunately, so far I haven't found any more about those events in other books. But it appears to be an interesting topic to explore further. What I don't yet have a handle on is how the whole reorganization of the Central Pacific at that time in order to pay off the Federal debt factors in to the buyout of the other interests. I suspect it is an important piece of the puzzle, but I've only just skimmed briefly so far. Lots more to integrate.

—Kyle

Inventory of Rocklin, 1869

2008-04-02T21:35:00.000-07:00

From: "Chris Graves" caliron@cwnet.com

In 1869, L. M. Clement, Assistant Engineer for the CPRR completed an inventory of Rocklin:

One wood shed, 326 feet by 43 1/2 feet
12 water tanks, gravity feed, cap. 42,000 gals.
One station, 85 ft. 9 in. by 24 ft. 4 in.
One round house, stone
One turntable.

CPRR Discussion Group

2008-04-01T00:01:00.000-07:00

Welcome to the CPRR Discussion Group at the Central Pacific Railroad Photographic History Museum.

See HOW TO POST to the CPRR Discussion Group.

Sail Cars

2008-03-31T22:39:00.000-07:00

From: "Don Ball" dlball1899@gmail.com

I was just reading through the Central Pacific Annual Report of 1884 and found a listing of the number of cars owned by the railroad. In it, I see that they had 58 sail cars and had just added two that year. In an earlier report in the 1870s, I saw that they had one or two and then there was no further mention of them so I concluded that the experiment was a failure. By 1884, they had 58 (compared to 384 section cars, which I presume to be hand cars, and 31 push cars). This was more than an experiment and, apparently, was successful enough that they were still acquiring the cars. Has any of you ever seen any mention of these outside of an annual report? Any photos?

—Don Ball

Rocklin's Roundhouse and Other Things

2008-03-30T21:33:00.001-07:00

From: "Ken Morrow" kenmorrow@pacbell.net

I never cease to be amazed at the history that this place (Rocklin and vicinity) harbors. It doesn't surprise me that land speculation was going on then. The housing bubble that we have today is not much different. I am reminded of a comment by Ann Richards when someone questioned why politicians in her state were so corrupt, she said, "Hey, this is Texas." With land in the "Wild West" so cheap (even free), one would have had to be crazy not to take advantages of the "available opportunities." Hey, out here you could even pick up gold from the streambeds!

On March 24th, Ken Yeo, the retired Supervisor of Restoration and Maintenance of the Sacramento Rail Museum, gave a pictorial presentation before the Springfield History Club. He showed literally hundreds of photographs of the railroad line in the vicinity of Auburn. He had developed the talk years before at the request of the Auburn Chamber of Commerce who had their offices in an old historic railroad building.

He showed before and after photos and made many comments about the denuding of the land that occurred when the railroad went through an area. The appetite for wood was voracious in the early days of the rails. As one might expect, the cutting of trees proceeded outward from the line. The easiest trees to harvest were those closest to the rail line. The Rocklin History Museum is where I found the information that Oak was preferred for the railroad ties. Considering the growth pattern of Oaks, there are probably not very many ties that could be cut from a single oak tree, but the other limbs could still be used for fuel. Also, from the photos that Ken Yeo showed, it didn't seem to matter whether the trees were on a steep hillside or not. It was still easier to take those closest to the line than those that had to be carted a larger distance.

With regard to the Roundhouse Foundation, I went to the site some months ago and discovered that most of the foundation is still there although a good section is covered with soil (or so it seems to me). I just stepped off the distances, but it looks to me that about 300 feet of the foundation is still there. Does anyone know the actual dimension of the facility? Some other comments follow. Even though it was called a "roundhouse," I think that it was in the shape of a semi circle. Is that true? The assumption seems to be that it's primary function was the servicing of the engines. We know that there were about 25 stalls. It seems to me that not all stalls were occupied by engines. Ken Yeo showed pictures of logging trains that had a brakeman for each car. I am of the opinion that the bearings on the first railroad cars were made of bronze. I would like to see someone answer the question as to when ball bearings arrived on the scene. If the bearings were made of bronze then it is quite likely that many of the roundhouse workers were employed as "grease monkeys" trying to keep the car bearings from burning up. Another large amount of work must have been associated with keeping the brakes in working order. Air brakes didn't come until later.

I also think that I may have some faulty information that I obtained from the Museum. On one photograph of the Roundhouse it mentions that it was capable of storing 25,000 cords of wood. I now wonder if this is correct. A cord of wood is a stack with dimensions of 4 by 4 by 8 feet or 128 cubic feet. It appears to be a unit of measure that was the amount that could be gotten on a horse drawn wagon of the time. Gary mentioned that the wood storage shed was 8000 square feet in size. If the stack of wood that could be stored inside of this structure was as much as 20 feet high (which is suspect), the volume would be 8000x20=160,000 cubic feet. This is 160,000/128=1250 cords. Knowing that 16 cords was required to power each of the three engines, each train would have to be loaded with 48 cords. If that is true, then the shed could only have serviced 1250/48=26 trains going uphill. Does anyone know how many trains were going uphill in any given day?

What is even more disturbing is that if the 25,000 cord figure is correct then 25,000/48=520 trains could have been serviced. This is 20 times more than could be stored in the wood shed. The following is even more difficult to contemplate. If you were to make a stack of wood that was 20 feet wide and 20 feet high, 25,000 cords represents 3,200,000 cubic feet, and the length of the pile would be 3,200,000/(20x20)=8,000 feet long! This is about 1.5 miles. Does anyone know if this has been photographed, researched or verified? Were there long piles of wood stored adjacent to the tracks? Has anyone researched how this wood was handled. Was it loaded by hand? Very interesting questions, you must admit.

As to Gary's comment about getting a fix on how property can be located, this can be answered by getting the tract maps for each of the land sales or transfers that are recorded at the Auburn County Assessor's office. They are keyed (I believe) to the Township and Section layout that has been used for years. I believe that this is indicated on the original maps. ... I am of the opinion that copies of all of the 140 +/- land transactions of Joel Parker Whitney could be acquired for 1 or 2 dollars per transaction. I'll check this out.

I'm also including .. a table that I obtained from the Museum that shows the elevations of each of the towns along the rail line. Unfortunately, the information regarding the distance from Sacramento was not included (other than the 82 miles to the summit). If anyone has the distances, along the railroad right of way, I would appreciate it if you could respond. I could calculate the (average) grades between the towns if I had this information. Just by looking at the data in the table, and knowing that Rocklin is about 20 miles from Sacramento, you can see that, yes by gosh, we are going into the hills near Rocklin, Loomis and Penryn as Wendell Huffman suggested in the statement that this is where the grade commenced (and the going gets tough). I'll bet that the firemen had memorized the number of logs that they had to throw on the fire at each point along the way. Did they have some way to get the logs moved to the front of the firebox other than stoking by hand? Anybody know that answer?

—Ken Morrow

Guide to Railroads in California by L. M. Clement

2008-03-27T21:12:00.000-07:00

Bruce Cooper directs our attention to:

Guide to Railroads in California by L. M. Clement

"L. M. Clement was one of the leading civil engineers responsible for surveying and building the eastbound route of the Central Pacific Railroad, thereby contributing to the completion of the transcontinental railroad in 1869. The collection comprises a handwritten copy of Clement's twelve-page report on the state of the California railroads before 1876, including assessments of Chinese laborers and their supervision, an evaluation of the condition of California's roads, and a description of the role of chief engineer in a railroad project."

Help with college paper on Chinese RR Workers

2008-03-27T20:42:00.000-07:00

From: "Richard Winters" wintersrich@gmail.com

I'm working on a college thesis paper detailing the contributions of Chinese immigrants. I'm essentially trying to prove that, without their help, it wouldn't have been finished near as quickly.

I've picked up a couple books (the best being Nothing Like It In the World), but I'm looking for more sources with statistical information to help make the case. This site looked like the best bet, and it was referenced in my ECON textbook. If you have any suggestions on sources with good statistics, I would be most appreciative. ...

—Richard Winters